[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 8:45:56 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 7, 2022 17:46:37 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

If the NHL allows it so should we

No, not necessarily... And definitely not everything, cuz not everything is transferrable, clearly.

We don't have a CBA, or a player's union, so there's no threat of players strike or a lockout, ever, which makes citing the CBA, on almost anything, absolutely ridiculous.

What you're trying to do here, and with your other BS trades over the last 2 days, besides team stacking, is try to force your own vision of what you THINK market value should be, but the reality it that, market value is already built in. Cuz, unlike the NHL, we have the luxury & benefit of knowing what these players overall skill levels are right now. It's right there in black & white, yet you want to have them valued solely on what they could be alone, which is wrong. Potential is only a factor, not their entire value cuz they still have to get there first.

Using this deal as an example, all we know for certain is that Voracek is an 87 & Holtz is a 77 cuz they're the only 2 actual players being moved around. Now, Voracek's age has absolutely no bearing on this because his contract is only for this season, and there is no guaranteed threat of him downgrading at all, but because it's a potential rental situation, that brings down the value a little bit, but it doesn't change the fact that Voracek is going to be an 87 all season long. Then you factor in the fact that you've duped some other 3rd party team to pay half his salary, and now you're only paying what amounts to an 84s salary for an 87 player, cuz you can't really afford the player in the first place. So, for me, that cancels out the potential rental situation factor cuz you're only paying half the salary of an 87 player for said last season on his current contract.

Then you move on to Holtz, who is a fantastic prospect, and theoretically could be inserted into the lineup immediately as a 77, however, just looking at this season alone since that's all that's left on the contract of the player he's being dealt for, you can't really value him as an 85 or an 87 yet cuz it's abundantly rare that any player gets +5 upgrade, let alone 2 seasons in a row, if you really want to factor in when Voracek does officially start his regression process and possibly signs an extension. For me, that places Holtz's value at no higher than 82 in this particular deal, but more likely is an 80. Then you factor in the 1st round draft pick, that you seem to be valuing as a top 10-15 overall pick, when the reality is that it's more likely to be towards the ass end of the 1st round, which really is about a 71, or less. With 1 season of Jr, that's maybe a 74 or less, if that player even plays in Jr's. 🤷

So what you're basically trying to tell people that an 82 (or less) & 74 (or less), at best, are worth a solid 87, as of right now. How is that a solid/fair trade exactly? 🤔🤷 It just doesn't add up at all, and you should need to add to Holtz & a 1st cuz you're not even giving up enough to aquire an 87 for 1 season, especially when you're not paying his entire salary.

You can't only look at a trade for one season and be like yup, this trade is not fair, that's not how it works. In fact, I may only be getting ONE season from Voracek while Munchen will be getting a full era of Holtz and whoever the 1st turns out to be. 

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 9:32:28 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 8:45:56 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

No, not necessarily... And definitely not everything, cuz not everything is transferrable, clearly.

We don't have a CBA, or a player's union, so there's no threat of players strike or a lockout, ever, which makes citing the CBA, on almost anything, absolutely ridiculous.

What you're trying to do here, and with your other BS trades over the last 2 days, besides team stacking, is try to force your own vision of what you THINK market value should be, but the reality it that, market value is already built in. Cuz, unlike the NHL, we have the luxury & benefit of knowing what these players overall skill levels are right now. It's right there in black & white, yet you want to have them valued solely on what they could be alone, which is wrong. Potential is only a factor, not their entire value cuz they still have to get there first.

Using this deal as an example, all we know for certain is that Voracek is an 87 & Holtz is a 77 cuz they're the only 2 actual players being moved around. Now, Voracek's age has absolutely no bearing on this because his contract is only for this season, and there is no guaranteed threat of him downgrading at all, but because it's a potential rental situation, that brings down the value a little bit, but it doesn't change the fact that Voracek is going to be an 87 all season long. Then you factor in the fact that you've duped some other 3rd party team to pay half his salary, and now you're only paying what amounts to an 84s salary for an 87 player, cuz you can't really afford the player in the first place. So, for me, that cancels out the potential rental situation factor cuz you're only paying half the salary of an 87 player for said last season on his current contract.

Then you move on to Holtz, who is a fantastic prospect, and theoretically could be inserted into the lineup immediately as a 77, however, just looking at this season alone since that's all that's left on the contract of the player he's being dealt for, you can't really value him as an 85 or an 87 yet cuz it's abundantly rare that any player gets +5 upgrade, let alone 2 seasons in a row, if you really want to factor in when Voracek does officially start his regression process and possibly signs an extension. For me, that places Holtz's value at no higher than 82 in this particular deal, but more likely is an 80. Then you factor in the 1st round draft pick, that you seem to be valuing as a top 10-15 overall pick, when the reality is that it's more likely to be towards the ass end of the 1st round, which really is about a 71, or less. With 1 season of Jr, that's maybe a 74 or less, if that player even plays in Jr's. 🤷

So what you're basically trying to tell people that an 82 (or less) & 74 (or less), at best, are worth a solid 87, as of right now. How is that a solid/fair trade exactly? 🤔🤷 It just doesn't add up at all, and you should need to add to Holtz & a 1st cuz you're not even giving up enough to aquire an 87 for 1 season, especially when you're not paying his entire salary.

You can't only look at a trade for one season and be like yup, this trade is not fair, that's not how it works. In fact, I may only be getting ONE season from Voracek while Munchen will be getting a full era of Holtz and whoever the 1st turns out to be. 

Yes, if it's a potential rental situation, you sure as hell can look at it as if it's for one season, cuz that's all you're guaranteed out of that player. Now you couple in the fact that Voracek's an 87, which, for all intents & purposes, is an elite player; a fringe elite player, but an elite player nonetheless, it doesn't matter that he gets Holtz for the entire era or not, cuz he might not even play in the NHL this season, and we already know the pick isn't for sure, so potentially, and basically, you're paying absolutely nothing for of consequence for an elite player for 1 season AND only paying half his salary to boot. 🤷 Screw that.

I succinctly and clearly explained my position on this, and will continue to either reject, or not even vote at all on these types of deals if I don't deem the principle deal to be fair, especially in the off season and not at the TDL. Period. And this one is very much not in my eyes, cuz it also doesn't matter how many picks, or whatever, you're forking over to have the salary retention when the principle deal is shit to begin with, and it's really only an aside from the principle deal. 🤷

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 9:59:00 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 9:32:28 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

You can't only look at a trade for one season and be like yup, this trade is not fair, that's not how it works. In fact, I may only be getting ONE season from Voracek while Munchen will be getting a full era of Holtz and whoever the 1st turns out to be. 

Yes, if it's a potential rental situation, you sure as hell can look at it as if it's for one season, cuz that's all you're guaranteed out of that player. Now you couple in the fact that Voracek's an 87, which, for all intents & purposes, is an elite player; a fringe elite player, but an elite player nonetheless, it doesn't matter that he gets Holtz for the entire era or not, cuz he might not even play in the NHL this season, and we already know the pick isn't for sure, so potentially, and basically, you're paying absolutely nothing for of consequence for an elite player for 1 season AND only paying half his salary to boot. 🤷 Screw that.

I succinctly and clearly explained my position on this, and will continue to either reject, or not even vote at all on these types of deals if I don't deem the principle deal to be fair, especially in the off season and not at the TDL. Period. And this one is very much not in my eyes, cuz it also doesn't matter how many picks, or whatever, you're forking over to have the salary retention when the principle deal is shit to begin with, and it's really only an aside from the principle deal. 🤷

Kruze, your viewpoint makes it look like me having Voracek for one season is more expensive than me having him for 5 seasons lol

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:08:07 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 9:59:00 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Yes, if it's a potential rental situation, you sure as hell can look at it as if it's for one season, cuz that's all you're guaranteed out of that player. Now you couple in the fact that Voracek's an 87, which, for all intents & purposes, is an elite player; a fringe elite player, but an elite player nonetheless, it doesn't matter that he gets Holtz for the entire era or not, cuz he might not even play in the NHL this season, and we already know the pick isn't for sure, so potentially, and basically, you're paying absolutely nothing for of consequence for an elite player for 1 season AND only paying half his salary to boot. 🤷 Screw that.

I succinctly and clearly explained my position on this, and will continue to either reject, or not even vote at all on these types of deals if I don't deem the principle deal to be fair, especially in the off season and not at the TDL. Period. And this one is very much not in my eyes, cuz it also doesn't matter how many picks, or whatever, you're forking over to have the salary retention when the principle deal is shit to begin with, and it's really only an aside from the principle deal. 🤷

Kruze, your viewpoint makes it look like me having Voracek for one season is more expensive than me having him for 5 seasons lol

No, actually it doesn't. It just holds people accountable to paying actual fair value for a player, and not perceptual value, or just potential value alone.

[Traktor Chelyabinsk GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:21:44 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 11:08:07 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Kruze, your viewpoint makes it look like me having Voracek for one season is more expensive than me having him for 5 seasons lol

No, actually it doesn't. It just holds people accountable to paying actual fair value for a player, and not perceptual value, or just potential value alone.

Genuinely curious, what do you think would be fair for Voracek?

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:33:24 GMT -8 Traktor Chelyabinsk GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 11:21:44 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

No, actually it doesn't. It just holds people accountable to paying actual fair value for a player, and not perceptual value, or just potential value alone.

Genuinely curious, what do you think would be fair for Voracek?

He'll probably say Puljujarvi, Holtz, 1st, 2nd and no retention on Voracek

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:21:44 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 11:08:07 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Kruze, your viewpoint makes it look like me having Voracek for one season is more expensive than me having him for 5 seasons lol

No, actually it doesn't. It just holds people accountable to paying actual fair value for a player, and not perceptual value, or just potential value alone.

Prospects in the real world and here are traded based on their potential. I'm not trading Shane Wright for some shlub because at the moment they're ranked higher.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:33:24 GMT -8 Traktor Chelyabinsk GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 11:21:44 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

No, actually it doesn't. It just holds people accountable to paying actual fair value for a player, and not perceptual value, or just potential value alone.

Genuinely curious, what do you think would be fair for Voracek?

I already said in my explanation above. If you didn't read it, that not my problem. 🤷

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:41:10 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 11:21:44 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

No, actually it doesn't. It just holds people accountable to paying actual fair value for a player, and not perceptual value, or just potential value alone.

Prospects in the real world and here are traded based on their potential. I'm not trading Shane Wright for some shlub because at the moment they're ranked higher.

Yes, but it shouldn't be solely on potential though. They're still at a current skill level that isn't at that potential, and that still needs to be taken into account as well, which seems to be completely ignored by you, and others that allows this stuff to take place. An 87 overall player isn't schlub; it's a lower end elite player. If you don't want to, or can't, pay up for an elite player, then you shouldn't be getting an elite player, especially for virtually nothing, and least of all in the off season. You can sit there and say "it happens irl ALL the time", but it really doesn't.

The only time a deal even remotely like this goes down, is at the trade deadline... very, very rarely in the off season; literally almost never. So you have absolutely zero argument there.

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 11:57:39 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 11:41:10 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Prospects in the real world and here are traded based on their potential. I'm not trading Shane Wright for some shlub because at the moment they're ranked higher.

Yes, but it shouldn't be solely on potential though. They're still at a current skill level that isn't at that potential, and that still needs to be taken into account as well, which seems to be completely ignored by you, and others that allows this stuff to take place. An 87 overall player isn't schlub; it's a lower end elite player. If you don't want to, or can't, pay up for an elite player, then you shouldn't be getting an elite player, especially for virtually nothing, and least of all in the off season. You can sit there and say "it happens irl ALL the time", but it really doesn't.

The only time a deal even remotely like this goes down, is at the trade deadline... very, very rarely in the off season; literally almost never. So you have absolutely zero argument there.

Almost never in the offseason eh?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/kraken-acquire-forward-oliver-bjorkstrand-from-blue-jackets-for-draft-picks/
www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/players/john-marino/878330
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/golden-knights-trade-max-pacioretty-dylan-coghlan-to-hurricanes-for-future-considerations/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/capitals-get-connor-brown-from-senators-for-2024-second-round-pick/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/sharks-trade-defenceman-brent-burns-to-hurricanes/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-trade-alex-debrincat-to-senators-for-draft-picks/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/lightning-trade-defenceman-ryan-mcdonagh-to-predators/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/kings-acquire-kevin-fiala-from-wild-for-first-round-pick-and-brock-faber/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/report-avalanche-acquiring-goaltender-darcy-kuemper-coyotes/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/jets-canucks-closing-deal-send-nate-schmidt-winnipeg/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/golden-knights-trade-marc-andre-fleury-blackhawks/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/panthers-acquire-sam-reinhart-sabres-devon-levi-first-round-pick/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-acquire-star-defenceman-seth-jones-blue-jackets/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canucks-acquire-ekman-larsson-garland-coyotes-blockbuster-deal/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/oilers-acquire-keith-blackhawks-jones-third-round-pick/
www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/kings-acquire-viktor-arvidsson-predators-draft-picks/

Oh btw, that was only the last two offseasons (and this one isn't even done yet), I can keep going.

[Junkie Piece of Shit]

great trade Holtz top line for my rebuild, nothing wrong with splitting an expiring contract 3 ways, if it was more than 1 year id feel diff. No one cares bout old man Voracek, hes a has-been.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

And none of those are even close equivalent to this cuz those deals were fair value, a roster player for a roster player + a pick and/or a prospect, out of necessity to move cap, or teams were overloaded in a position and need to move a guy out. Yours just simply aren't any of those, especially in this format where it's absolutely clear what a players value is in the current moment before you even consider potential value.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 12:29:40 GMT -8 Junkie Piece of Shit said:

great trade Holtz top line for my rebuild, nothing wrong with splitting an expiring contract 3 ways, if it was more than 1 year id feel diff. No one cares bout old man Voracek, hes a has-been.

None of that is even an issue with me, save for the has-been part since Voracek is currently an 87 and there's no guarantee of downgrade for a full 2 seasons from now. Until their age number does read 34+, their overall IS their value. You needed to get at least another solid prospect out of it or an 81-83 roster player to make up the difference for it to be even remotely close to fair IMO. 🤷

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 12:32:32 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

And none of those are even close equivalent to this cuz those deals were fair value, a roster player for a roster player + a pick and/or a prospect, out of necessity to move cap, or teams were overloaded in a position and need to move a guy out. Yours just simply aren't any of those, especially in this format where it's absolutely clear what a players value is in the current moment before you even consider potential value.

What's this?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-trade-alex-debrincat-to-senators-for-draft-picks/

3 picks for a 1st line winger in his prime

And how about this one?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/report-avalanche-acquiring-goaltender-darcy-kuemper-coyotes/

A 1st, conditional 3rd and prospect for a starting goalie

Or this?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/panthers-acquire-sam-reinhart-sabres-devon-levi-first-round-pick/

A 1st and a prospect for a player better and younger than Voracek?

Or maybe this one?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canucks-acquire-ekman-larsson-garland-coyotes-blockbuster-deal/

A top 4 defenceman and a top 6 winger for cap dump players, a 1st, 2nd and 7th

Ouu look! Another one!

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/kings-acquire-viktor-arvidsson-predators-draft-picks/

A top 6 winger for a 2nd and 3rd

These kinds of deals happen all the time in the NHL. Let alone Vegas throwing away Pacioretty and Fleury away for nothing because they can't manage their cap properly.

[Texas Rattlesnakes GM]

Sept 8, 2022 9:09:59 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 9:01:32 GMT -8 Texas Rattlesnakes GM said:

Personally, I like all caps. That's how I print shit in real life. LOL. It's really interesting to see the different things that annoy people and what doesn't. We got quite The Eclectic group here I'll tell you what!

You're not even in the right thread lmao

[Texas Rattlesnakes GM]

Sept 8, 2022 9:09:59 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 9:01:32 GMT -8 Texas Rattlesnakes GM said:

Personally, I like all caps. That's how I print shit in real life. LOL. It's really interesting to see the different things that annoy people and what doesn't. We got quite The Eclectic group here I'll tell you what!

You're not even in the right thread lmao

My bad. I didn't realize we had biting and hair pulling in two different threads. 😆

[Traktor Chelyabinsk GM]

Sept 8, 2022 13:16:02 GMT -8 Texas Rattlesnakes GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 9:09:59 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

You're not even in the right thread lmao

My bad. I didn't realize we had biting and hair pulling in two different threads. 😆

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 12:51:27 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 12:32:32 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

And none of those are even close equivalent to this cuz those deals were fair value, a roster player for a roster player + a pick and/or a prospect, out of necessity to move cap, or teams were overloaded in a position and need to move a guy out. Yours just simply aren't any of those, especially in this format where it's absolutely clear what a players value is in the current moment before you even consider potential value.

What's this?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-trade-alex-debrincat-to-senators-for-draft-picks/

3 picks for a 1st line winger in his prime

And how about this one?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/report-avalanche-acquiring-goaltender-darcy-kuemper-coyotes/

A 1st, conditional 3rd and prospect for a starting goalie

Or this?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/panthers-acquire-sam-reinhart-sabres-devon-levi-first-round-pick/

A 1st and a prospect for a player better and younger than Voracek?

Or maybe this one?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canucks-acquire-ekman-larsson-garland-coyotes-blockbuster-deal/

A top 4 defenceman and a top 6 winger for cap dump players, a 1st, 2nd and 7th

Ouu look! Another one!

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/kings-acquire-viktor-arvidsson-predators-draft-picks/

A top 6 winger for a 2nd and 3rd

These kinds of deals happen all the time in the NHL. Let alone Vegas throwing away Pacioretty and Fleury away for nothing because they can't manage their cap properly.

Exactly... And what did you end up paying for an all-star? 🤔 A fraction of that, and no I don't count the picks sent to Whalers for the retention.

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 8, 2022 14:08:11 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 12:51:27 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

What's this?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-trade-alex-debrincat-to-senators-for-draft-picks/

3 picks for a 1st line winger in his prime

And how about this one?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/report-avalanche-acquiring-goaltender-darcy-kuemper-coyotes/

A 1st, conditional 3rd and prospect for a starting goalie

Or this?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/panthers-acquire-sam-reinhart-sabres-devon-levi-first-round-pick/

A 1st and a prospect for a player better and younger than Voracek?

Or maybe this one?

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canucks-acquire-ekman-larsson-garland-coyotes-blockbuster-deal/

A top 4 defenceman and a top 6 winger for cap dump players, a 1st, 2nd and 7th

Ouu look! Another one!

www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/kings-acquire-viktor-arvidsson-predators-draft-picks/

A top 6 winger for a 2nd and 3rd

These kinds of deals happen all the time in the NHL. Let alone Vegas throwing away Pacioretty and Fleury away for nothing because they can't manage their cap properly.

Exactly... And what did you end up paying for an all-star? 🤔 A fraction of that, and no I don't count the picks sent to Whalers for the retention.

I paid more for Voracek than the Coyotes got for OEL and Garland, the Preds got for Arvidsson. I paid equivalent to what the Sabres got for Reinhart (he's also a better player and in his prime), equal to what the Coyotes got for Kuemper and less than what the Sens traded for DeBrincat but he's on a totally different level than Voracek.

So yeah, I think this is around market value for what NHL team are trading, not to mention every single player above is younger than Voracek lol.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 8, 2022 14:27:38 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 14:08:11 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Exactly... And what did you end up paying for an all-star? 🤔 A fraction of that, and no I don't count the picks sent to Whalers for the retention.

I paid more for Voracek than the Coyotes got for OEL and Garland, the Preds got for Arvidsson. I paid equivalent to what the Sabres got for Reinhart (he's also a better player and in his prime), equal to what the Coyotes got for Kuemper and less than what the Sens traded for DeBrincat but he's on a totally different level than Voracek.

So yeah, I think this is around market value for what NHL team are trading, not to mention every single player above is younger than Voracek lol.

Dude, you're not getting it... lol This is a sim league, not real life. Player values here are different here than they are in real life because we can actually see how good a player is, or isn't, at any given point by their overalls. So I really don't give 2 shits & a popcorn fart what Chicago got for Debrincat or what Buffalo got for Bennett in real life because it's not really transferrable, as much as you want it to be, it isn't. Nor do I agree with you that Bennett or Debrincat are better, in their prime, than Voracek was in his either. lol

All players overalls mean something, is my point. Sure, you can project what they a year or two or 5 down the road, that's fine, and should be taken into consideration which does boost there value a little bit, but it literally still is not the player's full value, their current overall is, cuz that is their skill level right now.

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 9, 2022 7:36:24 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 8, 2022 14:27:38 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

I paid more for Voracek than the Coyotes got for OEL and Garland, the Preds got for Arvidsson. I paid equivalent to what the Sabres got for Reinhart (he's also a better player and in his prime), equal to what the Coyotes got for Kuemper and less than what the Sens traded for DeBrincat but he's on a totally different level than Voracek.

So yeah, I think this is around market value for what NHL team are trading, not to mention every single player above is younger than Voracek lol.

Dude, you're not getting it... lol This is a sim league, not real life. Player values here are different here than they are in real life because we can actually see how good a player is, or isn't, at any given point by their overalls. So I really don't give 2 shits & a popcorn fart what Chicago got for Debrincat or what Buffalo got for Bennett in real life because it's not really transferrable, as much as you want it to be, it isn't. Nor do I agree with you that Bennett or Debrincat are better, in their prime, than Voracek was in his either. lol

All players overalls mean something, is my point. Sure, you can project what they a year or two or 5 down the road, that's fine, and should be taken into consideration which does boost there value a little bit, but it literally still is not the player's full value, their current overall is, cuz that is their skill level right now.

But an overall doesn't tell the full story dude. Look at Kaprizov for example. He used to start in the league around a 79 but would be a super hot commodity because everybody knew that he simmed great. The player's overall is only one aspect of their value but what would I rather, an 84 that sims like a 90 and will grow into that over time or an 87 that sims like an 87 and will stay there? Holtz sims great, so does Ryan Lindgren, it's why so many people were upset when St. Pats swooped him up. Everybody projects for how a player will do, it's all apart of the game.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 9, 2022 7:45:57 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 7:36:24 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Dude, you're not getting it... lol This is a sim league, not real life. Player values here are different here than they are in real life because we can actually see how good a player is, or isn't, at any given point by their overalls. So I really don't give 2 shits & a popcorn fart what Chicago got for Debrincat or what Buffalo got for Bennett in real life because it's not really transferrable, as much as you want it to be, it isn't. Nor do I agree with you that Bennett or Debrincat are better, in their prime, than Voracek was in his either. lol

All players overalls mean something, is my point. Sure, you can project what they a year or two or 5 down the road, that's fine, and should be taken into consideration which does boost there value a little bit, but it literally still is not the player's full value, their current overall is, cuz that is their skill level right now.

But an overall doesn't tell the full story dude. Look at Kaprizov for example. He used to start in the league around a 79 but would be a super hot commodity because everybody knew that he simmed great. The player's overall is only one aspect of their value but what would I rather, an 84 that sims like a 90 and will grow into that over time or an 87 that sims like an 87 and will stay there? Holtz sims great, so does Ryan Lindgren, it's why so many people were upset when St. Pats swooped him up. Everybody projects for how a player will do, it's all apart of the game.

For younger to a greater extent, yes, but they're still only a 79. Transversely, as in this case, you're already valuing an 87 as though their already an 84-85, which is also wrong. Especially when we haven't even started the season, and the fact that players 30-34's values literally their overalls, not some bullshit projection that they might downgrade.

You're literally overinflating prospect values too far & undercutting older players values far too much.

It's a bit of an exaggeration, but we're literally heading towards a place where a 19 yr old 77 is somehow worth a 90 cuz he's 32, which is complete bullshit. 🤷

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 9, 2022 8:29:18 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 7:45:57 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

But an overall doesn't tell the full story dude. Look at Kaprizov for example. He used to start in the league around a 79 but would be a super hot commodity because everybody knew that he simmed great. The player's overall is only one aspect of their value but what would I rather, an 84 that sims like a 90 and will grow into that over time or an 87 that sims like an 87 and will stay there? Holtz sims great, so does Ryan Lindgren, it's why so many people were upset when St. Pats swooped him up. Everybody projects for how a player will do, it's all apart of the game.

For younger to a greater extent, yes, but they're still only a 79. Transversely, as in this case, you're already valuing an 87 as though their already an 84-85, which is also wrong. Especially when we haven't even started the season, and the fact that players 30-34's values literally their overalls, not some bullshit projection that they might downgrade.

You're literally overinflating prospect values too far & undercutting older players values far too much.

It's a bit of an exaggeration, but we're literally heading towards a place where a 19 yr old 77 is somehow worth a 90 cuz he's 32, which is complete bullshit. 🤷

But that's not the case, Voracek is 33 and a UFA. He's at an age now where he can't upgrade at all anymore and if he has a poor season then he'll downgrade, if not then the following offseason no matter what he will. That means three seasons from now Voracek no matter what will be maximum 85 overall with a possibility of being even lower than that based on how he performs. It's economics in a way lol. Do I want an asset that will bring me initial success but will depreciate over time or do I want an asset that will appreciate over time and give me success in a few years? Depends on the state of your company honestly.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 9, 2022 8:49:36 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 8:29:18 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

For younger to a greater extent, yes, but they're still only a 79. Transversely, as in this case, you're already valuing an 87 as though their already an 84-85, which is also wrong. Especially when we haven't even started the season, and the fact that players 30-34's values literally their overalls, not some bullshit projection that they might downgrade.

You're literally overinflating prospect values too far & undercutting older players values far too much.

It's a bit of an exaggeration, but we're literally heading towards a place where a 19 yr old 77 is somehow worth a 90 cuz he's 32, which is complete bullshit. 🤷

But that's not the case, Voracek is 33 and a UFA. He's at an age now where he can't upgrade at all anymore and if he has a poor season then he'll downgrade, if not then the following offseason no matter what he will. That means three seasons from now Voracek no matter what will be maximum 85 overall with a possibility of being even lower than that based on how he performs. It's economics in a way lol. Do I want an asset that will bring me initial success but will depreciate over time or do I want an asset that will appreciate over time and give me success in a few years? Depends on the state of your company honestly.

It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now. Until his age meter says 34, his overall is his value. If he does happen to downgrade, then his value will be that next season. The only guarantee you have at this point is that he'll be an 86 by the start of the 3rd season from now. That's it.

[Slovan Stags GM]

Sept 9, 2022 8:59:13 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 8:49:36 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

But that's not the case, Voracek is 33 and a UFA. He's at an age now where he can't upgrade at all anymore and if he has a poor season then he'll downgrade, if not then the following offseason no matter what he will. That means three seasons from now Voracek no matter what will be maximum 85 overall with a possibility of being even lower than that based on how he performs. It's economics in a way lol. Do I want an asset that will bring me initial success but will depreciate over time or do I want an asset that will appreciate over time and give me success in a few years? Depends on the state of your company honestly.

It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now. Until his age meter says 34, his overall is his value. If he does happen to downgrade, then his value will be that next season. The only guarantee you have at this point is that he'll be an 86 by the start of the 3rd season from now. That's it.

You’re kinda right, but not really 

ERA S1 Upgrades/Downgrades 

RW/LW Jakob Voracek PLY 89 (32) -3
RW Alexander Holtz SNP 75 (19) +5


Holtz got tampered too. So he actually performed higher, +5 is max 

If we were all starting blind. It wasn’t EA, and an 87 was TRULY, ALWAYS an 87. Sure dude. But we aren’t. It is. And they never are. Some of us have a prettu good idea how these guys sim, and how it’s gonna be over time. But you’re acting like THAT doesn’t matter. Treat the OAs as a scouting report, and I think youll overall have a better experience. They just don’t mean what you think they mean. Voracek is hit and miss. This trade, It’s a gamble. You allowed to do that. Don’t know how many ways or times I have to say it. You guys want to have a chat about YOUR personal opinions on the matter, at this point time to DM each other, make a date, and stop flirting 

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 9, 2022 8:59:13 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 8:49:36 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

But that's not the case, Voracek is 33 and a UFA. He's at an age now where he can't upgrade at all anymore and if he has a poor season then he'll downgrade, if not then the following offseason no matter what he will. That means three seasons from now Voracek no matter what will be maximum 85 overall with a possibility of being even lower than that based on how he performs. It's economics in a way lol. Do I want an asset that will bring me initial success but will depreciate over time or do I want an asset that will appreciate over time and give me success in a few years? Depends on the state of your company honestly.

It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now. Until his age meter says 34, his overall is his value. If he does happen to downgrade, then his value will be that next season. The only guarantee you have at this point is that he'll be an 86 by the start of the 3rd season from now. That's it.

So you value an 87 overall that is 26 the same as an 87 overall that is 33?

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 9, 2022 9:16:40 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 8:59:13 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now. Until his age meter says 34, his overall is his value. If he does happen to downgrade, then his value will be that next season. The only guarantee you have at this point is that he'll be an 86 by the start of the 3rd season from now. That's it.

So you value an 87 overall that is 26 the same as an 87 overall that is 33?

In some cases, yes, but in a majority of cases, no. That's not what we're comparing here though.

See, this is the problem with you guys a lot of the time... You're not getting any headway with the topic at hand, so you make some other comparison to confuse the issue. Try staying on topic for once.

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 9, 2022 9:14:43 GMT -8 Slovan Stags GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 8:59:13 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now. Until his age meter says 34, his overall is his value. If he does happen to downgrade, then his value will be that next season. The only guarantee you have at this point is that he'll be an 86 by the start of the 3rd season from now. That's it.

You’re kinda right, but not really 

ERA S1 Upgrades/Downgrades 

RW/LW Jakob Voracek PLY 89 (32) -3
RW Alexander Holtz SNP 75 (19) +5


Holtz got tampered too. So he actually performed higher, +5 is max 

If we were all starting blind. It wasn’t EA, and an 87 was TRULY, ALWAYS an 87. Sure dude. But we aren’t. It is. And they never are. Some of us have a prettu good idea how these guys sim, and how it’s gonna be over time. But you’re acting like THAT doesn’t matter. Treat the OAs as a scouting report, and I think youll overall have a better experience. They just don’t mean what you think they mean. Voracek is hit and miss. This trade, It’s a gamble. You allowed to do that. Don’t know how many ways or times I have to say it. You guys want to have a chat about YOUR personal opinions on the matter, at this point time to DM each other, make a date, and stop flirting 

That's just it... I don't care what happened last era either, cuz everything is different again. There's no 100% guarantee that Holtz or Voracek is going to perform exactly the same as they did last era because the teams and their make up are different.

I do agree it's a gamble, even if the value for Voracek was there, but the value at this stage just isn't there for Voracek as an 87. It just isn't.

[Aachen der Adlers GM]

Sept 9, 2022 9:28:47 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 9:16:40 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

So you value an 87 overall that is 26 the same as an 87 overall that is 33?

In some cases, yes, but in a majority of cases, no. That's not what we're comparing here though.

See, this is the problem with you guys a lot of the time... You're not getting any headway with the topic at hand, so you make some other comparison to confuse the issue. Try staying on topic for once.

No Kruze, I brought up that point because you said "It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now." That tells me that you value all 87s the same but then you say in the majority of cases you wouldn't trade a younger 87 for an older 87, why? They're both 87s and have the value of an 87, so why would you want the younger one in most cases?

[Seattle Spitfires GM]

Sept 9, 2022 9:43:04 GMT -8 Aachen der Adlers GM said:

Sept 9, 2022 9:28:47 GMT -8 Seattle Spitfires GM said:

In some cases, yes, but in a majority of cases, no. That's not what we're comparing here though.

See, this is the problem with you guys a lot of the time... You're not getting any headway with the topic at hand, so you make some other comparison to confuse the issue. Try staying on topic for once.

No Kruze, I brought up that point because you said "It is the case cuz he won't get any higher than 87, which is his value right now." That tells me that you value all 87s the same but then you say in the majority of cases you wouldn't trade a younger 87 for an older 87, why? They're both 87s and have the value of an 87, so why would you want the younger one in most cases?

That's because, for me, it depends on the actual player, and not how old they are.