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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 25, 2022 9:56:58 GMT -8
 Suggestions , Rule Changes, Etc Cant ensure you everything will always be done, but here’s a place to voice your concerns. Be constructive, on point, and I shouldn’t have to say it, but don’t get personal And remember, 26 GMs (maybe 27?) here. Can’t make everyone happy on everything. We do our best to find a system that’s fun and works for majority of GMs If something makes sense, or gains traction, maybe it gets implemented or changed |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 25, 2022 15:27:07 GMT -8
Trades like this going through in the off-season. ps5hl.proboards.com/thread/927/atl-min-cleNow, in principle, on the surface, it just seems like your usual retention deal except that a 3rd team is involved for retention. Where the problem lays with this one is the amount of retention & how it's distributed. Trying to make the point "they can do it irl" is moot because they don't; least of all in the off-season, cuz no team in their right mind is going to pay half of someone's salary for a player to play somewhere else for an entire season unless 1) they're in cap trouble & need to shed cap, or 2) a player happens to request a trade & it's needed to facilitate the trade. Then you get into the 3rd party aspect of it, and, TBH, I'd never heard of it until Dumbass Dubas did it for the Knights to get Lehner. Yet, even in that scenario, Toronto was the only one retaining any of Lehner's salary; Chicago didn't retain anything and there was nothing cumulative about the retention either. And, again, to my mind, the only reason for a 3rd team to do that is if they're below the cap floor, which neither Cleveland nor Minny are, or were at the time of the transaction. Lehner trade for reference: www.capfriendly.com/trades/players/robin-lehnerThere's also no team out there, that I'm aware of, in the real NHL that isn't paying at least half of a player's salary due to a team or 2 retaining. It's just not done. Period. Especially when we just did free agency and the rest of us GMs are forking out $3.5M-$5.5M to guys in Toews' overall/age bracket, but the current reigning champs are allowed to get a top 6 forward for literally peanuts and only has to pay 1/4 of his salary? How does that seem right to anyone? 🤔🤷 The NHL retention rules as per Puckpedia: puckpedia.com/salary-cap/retained-salary#:~:text=The%20maximum%20retention%20%25%20is%2050The maximum retention of any salary is 50% and not cumulative to a second deal allowing it to go over 50%. |
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Post by Red Deer Rebels GM on Jan 25, 2022 18:38:40 GMT -8
Seattle Spitfires GM see now why can't you always be like that? That's a well laid out, calm post. A true gentleman.
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 25, 2022 21:18:32 GMT -8
That’s a well thought out post Seattle Spitfires GM . Thanks for putting that together However, I believe you’re still misinterpreting it Real Example: Devan Dubnyk’s cross-continent travels in 2014 demonstrated a number of these provisions: Jan 15, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Edmonton to Nashville. Edmonton retained 50% of his salary, or $1.75M of the $3.5M total. March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Nashville to Montreal. Nashville retained 25% of his salary (which applies to the original total). Therefore, the Predators retained $0.875M. Link - thehockeywriters.com/nhl-retained-salary-trades/So it appears as if it’s 50% max each time, max 2 times. Like we said Still some interesting stuff to consider in there though. |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 0:01:23 GMT -8
That’s a well thought out post Seattle Spitfires GM . Thanks for putting that together However, I believe you’re still misinterpreting it Real Example: Devan Dubnyk’s cross-continent travels in 2014 demonstrated a number of these provisions: Jan 15, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Edmonton to Nashville. Edmonton retained 50% of his salary, or $1.75M of the $3.5M total. March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Nashville to Montreal. Nashville retained 25% of his salary (which applies to the original total). Therefore, the Predators retained $0.875M. Link - thehockeywriters.com/nhl-retained-salary-trades/So it appears as if it’s 50% max each time, max 2 times. Like we said Still some interesting stuff to consider in there though. It's not though.. The rules state that it's only 50% in the very 1st line of the rule. It's not a comma or a semi-colon... It's a period. That's where folks can get confused because of the verbage of the rest of it. Also, it's funny you mention Dubnyk... lol Cuz the guy got nominated for the Vezina the year after all that shit too. 😂😂 But there's 2 factors there that are off.. 1) the league obviously effed up their own rule. 2) It was two separate transactions and they weren't all at the same time, nor were they in the off-season. |
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Post by Atlanta Thrashers GM on Jan 26, 2022 5:19:21 GMT -8
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 5:50:47 GMT -8
1) the league obviously effed up their own rule.2) It was two separate transactions and they weren't all at the same time, nor were they in the off-season. So it’s easier for you to believe that all of us, the NHL, and all the CBA lawyers that teams have are ALL wrong, and you’ve got the right interpretation? I hope you get on NHL.com and tell them to reverse that shit. Obviously MTL was getting an Admin advantage … |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 7:40:59 GMT -8
1) the league obviously effed up their own rule.2) It was two separate transactions and they weren't all at the same time, nor were they in the off-season. So it’s easier for you to believe that all of us, the NHL, and all the CBA lawyers that teams have are ALL wrong, and you’ve got the right interpretation? I hope you get on NHL.com and tell them to reverse that shit. Obviously MTL was getting an Admin advantage … Would you stop with "admin advantage" BS already? You asked me to stop with it, yet you bring up yourself... WTF? 🤔🤨😂😂 Anyways, the league did actually eff up their own rule cuz they've tweaked it and amended it since 2014 to what it is now. The original version of it in 2013 didn't have the 50% hard cap on retention it does now. lol Probably because of what happened with Dubnyk. |
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 7:58:45 GMT -8
Would you stop with "admin advantage" BS already? You asked me to stop with it, yet you bring up yourself... WTF? 🤔🤨😂😂 That’s fair. I’m just getting a little annoyed I’m all for a discussion, and if you want to point out the CBA for that. All good. Just didn’t like the bold statements of “Hey guys! I got it all figured out! Gonna have to reverse those trades dummies” , obviously paraphrasing Im not seeing anywhere of a change to the retention portion of the CBA since it’s been updated. So I just don’t understand how you can say “the NHL fucked up, IVE got it right” It looks like the way it’s been written is up to 50% retention. A contract can be retained up to 2 times. And apparently NHL teams have interpreted it that way. As shown in a few examples So unless you can site me a specific source saying that Dubnyk deal is now illegal, and the NHL fucked up, move this along to what WE can do in the future. Get past the ATL deal. It’s over done. I’m not reversing it |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 8:22:19 GMT -8
Would you stop with "admin advantage" BS already? You asked me to stop with it, yet you bring up yourself... WTF? 🤔🤨😂😂 That’s fair. I’m just getting a little annoyed I’m all for a discussion, and if you want to point out the CBA for that. All good. Just didn’t like the bold statements of “Hey guys! I got it all figured out! Gonna have to reverse those trades dummies” , obviously paraphrasing Im not seeing anywhere of a change to the retention portion of the CBA since it’s been updated. So I just don’t understand how you can say “the NHL fucked up, IVE got it right” It looks like the way it’s been written is up to 50% retention. A contract can be retained up to 2 times. And apparently NHL teams have interpreted it that way. As shown in a few examples So unless you can site me a specific source saying that Dubnyk deal is now illegal, and the NHL fucked up, move this along to what WE can do in the future. Get past the ATL deal. It’s over done. I’m not reversing it Well, first off, I didn't call anyone "dummies" in here Secondly, none of Crank's examples there prove his point either cuz, when you acquire a player, the inherent notion is that you're going to be paying at least some portion the player's cap. So of course the acquiring team is going to be "retaining" cap on the player they are acquiring. 🤦 lol Streit's worked out to 50% of the principle, once it was all ironed out... San Jose & Vegas split the 50% on Janmark, as did Detroit & Tampa on Savard, and only San Jose retained 50% on Foligno. Save for the Dubnyk deals in 2014, in all those examples above, the acquiring team is still paying 50% of the player's salary. I can see how one could get confused because they list it as 2 teams retaining cap, but the acquiring team is always paying 50% (or more) of the player they're acquiring's salary in all of those examples, save for Dubnyk's North American tour in 2014 when they didn't have the 50% hard cap on retention. |
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 8:44:55 GMT -8
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:03:17 GMT -8
Exactly... And Toronto is still on the hook for half of Foligno's $2.75M contract. How is that not apparent there? 🤨🤷 As I thought, they added the 50% hard cap in 2015 after the Dubnyk tour... thehockeywriters.com/nhl-retained-salary-trades/ |
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Post by Atlanta Thrashers GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:05:58 GMT -8
Kruze, you're wrong there. Look at it again. Tor was on the hook for 25% of Foligno.
It's hard to have this discussion when you're claiming something else with the evidence that you're incorrect presented to you.
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:14:24 GMT -8
And Seattle Spitfires GM I think you’re getting the wrong take away from that article They point out Dubnyk saying that the flexibility of the CBA ALLOWED them to do these things Jan 15, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Edmonton to Nashville. Edmonton retained 50% of his salary, or $1.75M of the $3.5M total. March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Nashville to Montreal. Nashville retained 25% of his salary (which applies to the original total). Therefore, the Predators retained $0.875M. March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was immediately demoted to Montreal’s AHL affiliate in Hamilton. After the demotion, he didn’t count against Montreal’s cap but he did still count against Edmonton’s ($1.75M) and Nashville’s ($0.875M). |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:20:55 GMT -8
Kruze, you're wrong there. Look at it again. Tor was on the hook for 25% of Foligno. It's hard to have this discussion when you're claiming something else with the evidence that you're incorrect presented to you. You're the one who's mistaken here Crank cuz what's half of $2.75M? $1.375M... And how much is Toronto's cap hit for Foligno? $1.375M. 🤷 It's simple math dude. |
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Post by Atlanta Thrashers GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:22:28 GMT -8
Kruze, you're wrong there. Look at it again. Tor was on the hook for 25% of Foligno. It's hard to have this discussion when you're claiming something else with the evidence that you're incorrect presented to you. You're the one who's mistaken here Crank cuz what's half of $2.75M? $1.375M... And how much is Toronto's cap hit for Foligno? $1.375M. 🤷 It's simple math dude. What was his initial cap hit with CBJ? Here's a link to that contract - www.capfriendly.com/players/nick-foligno |
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:23:19 GMT -8
Kruze, you're wrong there. Look at it again. Tor was on the hook for 25% of Foligno. It's hard to have this discussion when you're claiming something else with the evidence that you're incorrect presented to you. You're the one who's mistaken here Crank cuz what's half of $2.75M? $1.375M... And how much is Toronto's cap hit for Foligno? $1.375M. 🤷 It's simple math dude. Uh, his contract is 5.5M, so yeah simple math |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:28:18 GMT -8
And Seattle Spitfires GM I think you’re getting the wrong take away from that article They point out Dubnyk saying that the flexibility of the CBA ALLOWED them to do these things Jan 15, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Edmonton to Nashville. Edmonton retained 50% of his salary, or $1.75M of the $3.5M total. March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Nashville to Montreal. Nashville retained 25% of his salary (which applies to the original total). Therefore, the Predators retained $0.875M. March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was immediately demoted to Montreal’s AHL affiliate in Hamilton. After the demotion, he didn’t count against Montreal’s cap but he did still count against Edmonton’s ($1.75M) and Nashville’s ($0.875M). I was referring to the bullet points of the rules. That was the first instance/appearance of the 50% hard cap. Dubnyk was essentially their guinea pig and it's the reason why the 50% hard cap now exists. |
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:32:40 GMT -8
Sure, 50% per team, up to two obviously. Unless the NHL was sleeping at the wheel on Foligno too?
Like, I’ve gone over this and over this. People have shown you examples. How hard is it really to just say “ ya know what? I was wrong. That rule sucks. Maybe we shouldn’t allow it here?”
Then maybe we could have a conversation that could get somewhere. Or not, I don’t think anyone wants it changed except you
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:45:43 GMT -8
You're the one who's mistaken here Crank cuz what's half of $2.75M? $1.375M... And how much is Toronto's cap hit for Foligno? $1.375M. 🤷 It's simple math dude. Uh, his contract is 5.5M, so yeah simple math If it were, the transaction would read that Columbus retained cap as well, which they actually didn't. They moved $2.75M off their books cuz that's all Foligno had left remaining on his contract, then the Sharks were able to cut that in half. The only example of what you're talking about, and what they did with the deal here, was Dubnyk in the first year of it, and it's since been ratified. All the rest of the examples Crank provided support the reality that it's only 50% of the original contract signed by the player that can be retained. |
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:55:26 GMT -8
Apparently it’s really hard.
This is the last time I’m gonna break this down.
Foligno’s 20-21 Cap hit - 5.5M
How’d it get to be 1.375M on TOR? (25%)
CBJ - Original Team
SJS - 3rd Party
TOR - Final Destination
CBJ - retains 50% of 5.5M (2.75M)
SJS - retains 50% of that 2.75M (1.375M)
TOR - Cap hit 1.375M
Total = 5.5M
There it is man
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 9:59:00 GMT -8
Apparently it’s really hard. This is the last time I’m gonna break this down. Foligno’s 20-21 Cap hit - 5.5M How’d it get to be 1.375M on TOR? (25%) CBJ - Original Team SJS - 3rd Party TOR - Final Destination CBJ - retains 50% of 5.5M (2.75M) SJS - retains 50% of that 2.75M (1.375M) TOR - Cap hit 1.375M Total = 5.5M There it is man If Columbus retained $2.75M, the transaction would reflect that and it doesn't. |
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Post by Atlanta Thrashers GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:02:03 GMT -8
I think this conversation speaks for itself at this point.
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Post by Slovan Stags GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:06:58 GMT -8
Apparently it’s really hard. This is the last time I’m gonna break this down. Foligno’s 20-21 Cap hit - 5.5M How’d it get to be 1.375M on TOR? (25%) CBJ - Original Team SJS - 3rd Party TOR - Final Destination CBJ - retains 50% of 5.5M (2.75M) SJS - retains 50% of that 2.75M (1.375M) TOR - Cap hit 1.375M Total = 5.5M There it is man If Columbus retained $2.75M, the transaction would reflect that and it doesn't. What was Foligno’s contract bro? 5.5M yeah? Can we agree on that? What was TOR cap hit for Foligno? 1.375M yeah? How TF did it get that way? Who paid it?  Does the math check out? 5.5M x .25 = 1.375M 25% of the OA contract FML I’ve spent too much time on this issue |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:09:58 GMT -8
I think this conversation speaks for itself at this point. Yeah... You guys refuse to see the truth cuz you, yourself, want an 86 player for nothing. lol Pretty self-explanatory. 🙄 The reason Foligno's contract was only $2.75M when it went to SJ was because that was what was remaining to be paid out on his deal. Columbus didn't retain shit all. They were just off the hook for the remainder of the contract & got to drop $5.5M AAV from their cap. |
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:12:14 GMT -8
If Columbus retained $2.75M, the transaction would reflect that and it doesn't. What was Foligno’s contract bro? 5.5M yeah? Can we agree on that? What was TOR cap hit for Foligno? 1.375M yeah? How TF did it get that way? Who paid it? View AttachmentDoes the math check out? 5.5M x .25 = 1.375M 25% of the OA contract FML I’ve spent too much time on this issue Yet on cap friendly on the Foligno deal, no where does it say Columbus retained anything, only SJ. 🤷 |
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Post by Atlanta Thrashers GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:12:52 GMT -8
I think this conversation speaks for itself at this point. Yeah... You guys refuse to see the truth cuz you, yourself, want an 86 player for nothing. lol Pretty self-explanatory. 🙄 The reason Foligno's contract was only $2.75M when it went to SJ was because that was what was remaining to be paid out on his deal. Columbus didn't retain shit all. They were just off the hook for the remainder of the contract & got to drop $5.5M AAV from their cap. ,on%20the%20Maple%20Leafs'%20books. "Columbus receives a 2021 first- and 2022 fourth-round pick from Toronto and retains half of Foligno's $5.5 million US salary-cap hit. The San Jose Sharks get a 2021 fourth-rounder from Toronto for taking 25 per cent of Foligno's salary to make it work on the Maple Leafs' books." |
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Post by Macon Whoopee GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:17:34 GMT -8
Can I suggest we drop this finally and move on. Who cares anymore. it is a SIM league, not anything worth getting this worked up over. The last thing I saw someone get this upset with something was when I told my wife to schedule a night of love making and I was done in 4.26 seconds and half of that was cleaning up the love mess.
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Post by Seattle Spitfires GM on Jan 26, 2022 10:26:05 GMT -8
Yeah... You guys refuse to see the truth cuz you, yourself, want an 86 player for nothing. lol Pretty self-explanatory. 🙄 The reason Foligno's contract was only $2.75M when it went to SJ was because that was what was remaining to be paid out on his deal. Columbus didn't retain shit all. They were just off the hook for the remainder of the contract & got to drop $5.5M AAV from their cap. ,on%20the%20Maple%20Leafs'%20books. "Columbus receives a 2021 first- and 2022 fourth-round pick from Toronto and retains half of Foligno's $5.5 million US salary-cap hit. The San Jose Sharks get a 2021 fourth-rounder from Toronto for taking 25 per cent of Foligno's salary to make it work on the Maple Leafs' books." Finally you post something that actually says it verbatim... Thank you. 👍 Cap friendly obviously needs to adjust their format cuz they don't include the initial retainment on the transactions. That's crazy cuz I was certain they had ratified this cuz the first sentence of the rule actually states that it's 50% and you shouldn't be allowed do that anymore. Weird. That's a pretty big oversight on the rule cuz "The maximum retention % is 50%." should actually negate stacking more retention onto the contract. |
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Post by retro on Jan 26, 2022 10:35:05 GMT -8
Toronto did shit that trade Foligno looked like a piece of my shit in the series against the habs. I know that's not the deal. But think about it. Getting player retained doesn't mean anything. Why is this such a big deal? It is a small different if every team want to make a trade with double retention, there is no problem! I did some trades with Riga where the contract was retained 2 times. Why is it important. This isn't even the NHL it's a sim.
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